Song structures...

Please don't take this wrong as I started out doing home recording of myself playing three chords for ten minutes so I could play along and improve my lead playing skills. I also have many loops I've collected with the same scenario...three or four chords that for the most part, never change.

What I find frustrating about many good loops here is the song structures. Although just my 'western music' spin on this, I write songs like Tom Petty, Eagles or Eddie Money where the structure is basically like this...intro, verse, verse, chorus, verse, verse, chorus, outro with solo spaces thrown in for good measure. And yes, there are many variations of this, which may also include pre-chorus's and bridges, but you see what I'm saying.

I love writing lyrics and I find that many wikiloops have unusual structures. Some require for the 1st verse to start at 00:01, also some have non-existent chorus's (bridge, etc) or chorus's that vary throughout the song. This makes my style of lyric writing very frustrating. I started out copying/pasting sections of the loop trying to reform it to my 'comfort zone,' but this adds hours of editing, and pitch changes are always a 'hit-or-miss' proposition.

I'm not saying my idea's are right, but for me, I grew up in the USA listening to FM radio, and the way Springsteen or Frampton write songs. For members just looking to have some jamming fun, then your loop is already a 'job well done.' But for those wishing to allow their songs to perhaps reach for higher levels, please consider the structure first. Thanks everyone and keep rockin...Glen

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Hey Glen,

most of the tracks and adds here are simply jams, moving targets that change with every iteration. I think I could name only a couple of people that start out with some sort of desired final structure already in mind. I`d guess it`s mostly the case when lyrics and vocals are involved.

But there are some talented songwriters here. Why don`t you get in touch with them and swap ideas? Also, maybe the band project approach might suit your needs.

Thomas

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Yep, what Thomas wrote. You could find some people who would like to work on a track with you, alternatively you could put down a simple guitar or keys track with your idea and then others will fill it in.

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I think it likely, though of course I'm guessing, that many people coming to the Loops have already a lifetime of song writing in their pockets. They sift through and post up some good ones. That's the point - they are digging into a life time of writing and picking the most suitable to post up here, they are not writing on the spur of the moment "live". Some are of course. When they're done they occasionally post as they have another good song idea, but the bulk of their life time of writing they have already condensed into loops in the first year at the loops which obviously made them look like they are just churning out great songs one after the other.

Just guessing - that's me more or less, though I've never written a whole song in my life, I had some ideas over my life that I condensed into tracks here, then ran out. I'm not so imaginative at 64 as I was when I was younger.

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I personally have nothing to say on the subject, but I read your post with a lot of interest LittleWing. :)

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Not everyone is the same and nothing wrong with "whipping oiut a scorching solo " because you felt the inspiration. Not slamming anyone even though it sounds like it but I am saying there is an imbalance between the "types " of people who attract "groups" and instill musical self discipline.

You need those people for the semi professional level home recordists to even take Wikiloops seriously otherwise its just Noodling over loops.Wikinoodle.

If a guy has a half million dollar studio and has spent 35 years recording and spends 8 hours recording a backing track, its actually an insult and huge slap in the face when noones doing anything inspired with what is truly a great track and all the song gets is 30 seconds of solo at the end because someone only wanted to try their new amp out.

Ive actually heard someone say "why even bother".
When that happens more and more those people simply go where their talent is appreciated .
That can change when the work ethic is instilled and right now thats out of Vogue.

Its shitty working hard and someone just scriubbles all over the hard work with no thought or effort or consideration for everything that went in to the creation.
That sentiment existts and SG1972 sees it.

A newbie even sees it.
I feel even more validated now.

A.I. isnt even a factor . A.I. is laughable to someone whos spent years working all night learning to play something over and over , playing in front of audiences, developing their skills and inspiring others because they have talent and more importantly PASSION and a love for music.
What IS the enemy is the ever changing laziness and malaise that envelops society.

I point to all the recent news stories of artists exploding in anger on stage by inconsiderate "fans" waving cell phones around.

Its just another way of scribbling over someones hard work and giving a huge middle finger to the time and effort the artist put in to perform. Its lazyness and selfishness. Why bother.

The rudeness in general society, is very much in music .Artists are just selling there entire body of music for millions because "Why bother anymore".

Its very sad when you get a track with say a fast , very well executed fast riff that only requires a basic elemenmtary knowledge of the minor pentatonic scale and all the comments are "GREAT! BADASS! SOUNDS KILLER!" but not one person puts effort into maybe learning what the other person is playing so the track mnakes it way down the front page where it dies and gets flushed down the toilet.

There was a time , the harder and more advanced stuff , people jumped on and not just "a couple of adds". It was like a feeding frenzy .
why bother.

I cant even remember the last forum post discussing scales or better EQ tips or recording techniques or best microphones for vocals.
Why bother.

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Man, interesting subject indeed.

One small thing I would like to point out as an addition to Little Wing's point about 2016 and the past: I observed that over the years there have been many fantastic musicians around, but there are not that many that keep on creating track after track for year after year. After a while, the well of creativity runs a bit dry for most people, that's why many of the "old" people are not uploading as before.

But yes, writing good songs with an interesting structure is another skill that needs to be practiced. I grew up playing where there wasn't internet, and we only had a shitty tape to record and listen to ourselves, so we had to learn the song and play it over and over until it worked (or not).

Things are changing, but not all is bad. And I hope Wikiloops keeps helping bedroom musicians like myself to keep on playing :W

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True Tee. Life happens, people grow families etc....

Im simply ranting about an imbalance in one of the archetypes of memebers here.

It something that has saddened me and I miss dearly.

Everyone is different and we are not discussing anyones skill level.

Its about a certain type of musician who is essential almost in a producer type way.

You didnt dare jump on an Olivbee track unless it was your A game. You could be a beginner but still , he expected your best effort for the song.

Thats all Im saying.

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There exists a member here who has a "bee" for an avatar and has maybe 2 jams.
Many years ago this member took one of Olives tracks and just grunted and made fart noises over what was a beautiful track.
Noone commented because everyone was waiting to hear what Olives response would be.

Olive probably was pissed but he remained calm and verbally skewered the clown very calmly but it was brutal in Olives direct "way".It was still mean. Calm but mean but truthful.

"So what were you trying to accomplish artistically here ?"I remember but the guy was just trying to be a jackass gave zero effort and just did it to get attention for himself.and Olive handled it perfect. The guy left after the dress down.

Wish I could find that.Olive had none of someone disrespecting something he spent alot of time on and it had had actual talent and some clown with zero talent thought he was being funny scribbling all over what was a nice musical work.

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Can`t comment on how Wikiloops has developed over the years, but I do find myself selecting and listening to "older" tracks more often than not.

One thing to note, and maybe in contrast to LittleWing`s view, I think there`s a whole lot of good and honest stuff being done in the private band rooms that`s rarely published here. Could be that that`s a reaction to the kind of comments LittleWing mentioned.

As regards songwriting and creativity...while I don`t think that WL mirrors what`s happening in the charts (different age structure, different objectives for being here)...the similarity is striking. Key changes are seldom found and song structures are created by when another instrument sets in.

BUT...that observation relates only to what is visible on WL. There are members (myself included) who work on tracks, trying to give them structures without ever uploading the results.

Being not of the songwriting persuasion myself, I`d love to understand if there might be requirements on the platform that would make it easier for songwriters to engage.

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Quick afterthought on that "requirements" comment in my last post. Would it for example make life easier for songwriters if we had an additional template category "song drafts" which could be used for sketches, drafts on a song maybe even with a guide melody for vocals? Of course, that would put the onus on the uploader to supply chords information, BPM, structures etc. But that could be a starting point for others to pick up on an idea. Just a thought...

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I will add...also uploading individual instrument tracks, and in HD really help as sometimes minor 'tweak' may be needed to solidify song parts or sections. I've been working in audio related fields for my entire career, and we all know making copies of copies works best when the original files are the highest quality you can provide. I'm still pretty much 'old school' at home, but make sure all of my projects are WAV files with a min. 24-bit/48K. Speaking of 'old school' my Band-n-Box allows creating song structures which include whatever you decide. Other than providing basic backing tracks, I avoid anything even closely related to AI, as I'm writing the song not my PC. And if I weren't so lazy, I understand many new DAW's offer songwriting tools that no-doubt blow B-n-B out of the water...Glen

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i recall jamming, for hours, in person, until something was worked out to be a song. as a guitar player, diligently working with the drummer, to get the dynamics/changes/etc all down. sometimes just hitting record and jamming and revisiting to work on those "special moments" that were captured. for me, it's that connection with the drummer which helps me write things in a more complex manner, or song flowing way. and it's instant, adjustments made in real time, worked on in real time. hard to replicate over the internet, mainly because of the dedication and time required over multiple days/hours, as opposed to a couple of hours or days in person. maybe it just comes down to discipline and dedication.

there are some who are good at restructuring tracks, giving them a different feel/flow, those are always great to hear. so many times i've heard something and i think, this would be great to just re-write, now that i have some broadened ideas...and then i realize i don't have the drive to actually do it lol. why is that? is it being lazy? is it, for what purpose? is it something else? maybe it's just finding that ying to your yang...who knows :) it puzzles me. this just popped in my head right now, is it because we associate songs with vocals and vocals are few and far between. does that discourage us from developing further? is it fear of creative differences and avoiding potential issues with members? i don't know.

interesting post. cheers!

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Thomas/MySounds gave me a new found perspective on this and I need to be more diligent with uploading HD files.

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"The track is uploaded and within two minutes of upload the first add is posted and the description reads “Just checking my new amp!" ... frustrating, right? Quantity over quality :(

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Yeah, playing live with a drummer is priceless, love it, and I miss that. Used to do it a lot with my former band's drummer and sometimes the jams sounded almost like structured tunes. When there's that chemistry it's just really great.

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The old me would have reached thru the internet and crushed his soul but the new and kinder me forgives him , for he knoweth not what he has done.

Its just rude and ignorant . It lacks basic decency of any sort.Shows a self absorbed shithead ignorant of others. Probably thinks hes at some AI backing track website and the tracks come out a Backing Track assembly machine.

Im used to it , Ill live. See it all the time at work, at the store, at the gas station.
Im really liking a show called Catfished om Youtube.


Its all similiar self absorbed and disgusting people who are devoid of any ethics or morals who they try to talk out of being scammed online sometimes for millions of dollars. The people are complete low lifes and you actually end up cheering the scammers because theyre cheating , destroying their families for a quick fling and deserve every bit of it.Its not intelligent tv but its fun to watch the ignorant ones get it once on awh. One dirtbag thought he was dating Jennifer Aniston online..and he had no teeth.

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For the last two days, I have asked in Shoutbox, for an example of a public track that was shared by one of the private bands. I got a response telling how to do one, but that's not what I asked. I'm here now to explain why I'm asking the question. I'm asking because I love when the collaboration tracks come together and almost seem as if they are being "produced". And, these templates are the ones I 1) want to write lyrics for and 2) want to provide guitar work, ... not jam.

Yes, this is an awesome place to jam, but it really could be a place for the creation of some wonderful music. But, the agendas of the membership public vary wildly. Some want to see how many duplicate chord progressions they can put out for the landing page here to show they've submitted the most tracks. Some want to jam on anything and don't care if they leave mistakes. Some seem to be really methodical, talented, and stylish. I like the musicians that are trying to build something here, but I agree with the original post author here, that the templates need to be structured like songs. We could identify the tracks as 1) jams or 2) potential songs. We would have to agree as a community to do so. I'm willing to tell it like it is with all my submissions moving forward in my descriptions. And, I do hope that many wish to produce templates that can evolve into really nice music.

I haven't submitted any templates yet, but I plan to submit some templates that can be used for "jamming" like a backing track and ... I plan to submit some templates for an album with lyrics here.

And, if anyone really doesn't care if things change, please comment and let us know how you are doing any music projects outside of WikiLoops. I'm always interested to hear about other's music fun and success.

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